Scott M. Curran: There are at least 1.4 billion people on this planet with no connection to the financial system. No bank account, no loan, no way to turn a good idea into a livelihood. And this isn't because they lack talent, drive, or ambition. The system you and I know simply wasn't built to include them. You most likely know what it feels like to swipe a credit card, open a bank account, or borrow money to get an education or start a new venture. But many people don't, not just in developing countries, but right here in the US and many other developed countries around the world, too. This massive divide between talent and opportunity is what today's guest is building a bridge across. 

Welcome to Better Good, the show where you learn how the best do good and how you can, too. I'm your host, Scott Curran. For 25 years, I've served as a corporate lawyer, an in-house general counsel, and an advisor to some of the most extraordinary social impact work spanning the private sector, philanthropy, and social enterprises.On this podcast, I talk to the innovators reimagining how the world does good, bringing you candid and inspiring conversations and practical advice, guidance, and tools you can use in your life and at work. If doing good is something you care about, you're in the right place, because the world's biggest problems won't wait, and neither should you.

My guest today is Vishal Ghotge, CEO of Kiva, the micro-lending platform that has delivered nearly $2.5 billion in loans to over five million entrepreneurs in 80 countries, often just $25 at a time. And Kiva does this with a 95% repayment rate, a success rate that rivals the US Small Business Administration, serving people who have no collateral, no credit history, and no safety net, but whose lives and communities can be transformed by modest loans with massive impact. In other words, these people and communities are great investments, and connecting them with loans from people like you and me sets everyone up for better good that scales, sustains, and creates a model that makes this world a better place. We all just need an opportunity to connect, which is exactly what Kiva and Vishal provide.

Vishal grew up in Mumbai, came to the US for graduate school at our shared alma mater, the University of Illinois, and worked in tech until one day, a recruiter reached out to him and opened a whole new career in the world of social impact. What at first seemed like a crazy idea turned out to be the dream job he'd been waiting for.

Today, Kiva's focused on providing transformative low-dollar loans to the populations where capital does the most transformative work: women entrepreneurs, refugees, small business owners here in the US, and in communities on the front lines of climate change. As someone who started giving through Kiva when it first started in the early 2000s, it was one of the first platforms that showed me what it feels like to participate directly in solving a global challenge, and how easy it is to connect directly with individuals and communities around the world in a personal and extremely fulfilling way.

I remember the excitement of making those first loans, seeing the actual faces and individual stories of the entrepreneurs I was supporting. I even gave Kiva gift cards to family members one Christmas so they could join in. It was real, it was tangible, personal, and actionable, and it still is. After this conversation with Vishal, I hope you'll be inspired to try it, too. 

This is Better Good, and here's my conversation with Kiva CEO Vishal Ghotege. 

Scott M. Curran: Vishal, welcome to the Better Good podcast. 

Vishal Ghotge: Scott, it's a pleasure to be here, and thanks for the great intro. 

Scott M. Curran: You're very welcome. I am so excited about this conversation for so many reasons, and I'm gonna do my best to keep on track and not turn this into a three-plus hour long form podcast. But there are several amazing things both about the work you're doing now at Kiva, but also your career. But I actually wanna go back even before that, if you're willing. This is a question I love to start with everybody. 

I'm curious, for you, what is your earliest memory in life where you realized or discovered that doing good was a thing that people did, and something that you might be able to do, too?

Vishal Ghotge: I don't have a particular memory, Scott, about this, but I would say one of my biggest influences growing up has been my grandfather—and seeing him lead a life full of service and mission. executing on something that he genuinely believed in, has stayed with me. And that was my example of doing good in the world is how you lead a successful life, and I've always wanted to emulate that. He believed in uplifting people through the power of education, and he spent his entire life doing that. And so it was an example of me seeing a life well-lived, and I've always wanted to lead a life in his footsteps. And so that's my, in some ways, earliest memory that doing good is a thing, and it's not at odds at leading a good life. In fact, it is how you lead a good life. 

Scott M. Curran: I love that. I wanna just yes-and the grandfather thing. I actually wear my grandfather's wedding ring, and while my earliest memory is not one of him, his life is, is very similar and it has had a profound impact. I'm also always, you know, find it a little heartwarming that many people's grandparents factor so heavily into it and how privileged we are to have memories of our grandparents. So shout out for all the grandparents who've left an impact on all of us, and I can relate to that one. I'm curious, I don't wanna get too far ahead, but I—and I don't mean to stay too far in the past—but was there any point in your life growing up at home, at school, in your community, where you first became aware that opportunity isn't equally dispersed in the world? Something we'll talk about in, in regards to your work at Kiva. But I'm curious if there's an early moment or inflection point when you realized, that that uneven distribution was a thing. 

Vishal Ghotge: You know, it's interesting how you look back on your life and you see it, you see it very evident, but sometimes you don't realize while you're in, in the moment. And I lived in Mumbai. I grew up in and around, where there's a-- uou know, there's, there is inequality. You can't escape inequality, right? It's just right there staring you in your face. As I mentioned, I—we didn't grow up. We grew up with very modest means, but still I thought we were privileged in terms of having a wonderful family who, invested in their kids.

But all around us were people who were--who did not have access to the basic, uh, means of leading lives. As I mentioned, sometimes you don't see it directly when you are in, in it, but I've realized a lot more about my background after coming to the US and reflecting and,I don't know whether it happens with others or not, but I've, like even, even when talked about my grandfather. The influence he had on my life became more evident to me when I reflect back as opposed to when I was in that moment.

 So yes, I would say just growing up in Mumbai, going to school, taking the train and, you know, being in localities where people are mixing people with having a lot and who had nothing. It's just you see, you see those stark differences growing up and it's all around me. 

Scott M. Curran: So thank you for that. And now, now give us like a fast-forward freeze frame, because you've had this extraordinary career that regardless of background, circumstances, living around the world, you've done amazing things in your career. And as somebody who also started in the private sector and eventually wound up in, in not your average philanthropy or in the nonprofit space, I identify with, with these changes. For those who aren't familiar with your personal background or story, walk us through sort of the quick hits of how you went from Mumbai to Microsoft, Groupon, PayScale, Remitly, and now Kiva. Give us the fast-forward version of that and your through line. What are the arcs that, that took you through those?

Vishal Ghotge: Yeah. The through line has-- I feel has always been, find a place where you are doing something that's providing value and service to as many people as you can. I'm in the nonprofit world right now, but I don't think that's the only way you can contribute to society. There is just no reason, like you can be leading a, in the private sector, a business that's doing--generating profits and be doing, um, providing service in the world. So I don't think those are at odds. Sometimes people feel that. I, I don't think so. 

Scott M. Curran: Strong agree. 

Vishal Ghotge: You know, I found myself always within o-organizations, uh, within organizations also working on projects where I felt this contributes positively towards the people I'm serving. And, uh, so yeah, I, I started. I came to the US to do my grad studies. I went to the University of Illinois, um, to study computer science, uh, like many, many from India, engineers coming and studying, uh, doing their, um, post-graduate studies over here. And Microsoft was my first job out of school. It was, wonderful because I went to a place which I would say was the hotbed of innovation at that time, working in areas that were deep in the technology. I’ve said this a couple of times in oth-other podcasts as well, like I've got to work for people whose textbooks I was studying in at school, and that was a dream come true for me. It's like, "Wow, I-- This is amazing! These are people in the history books, and I can actually work alongside them and learn from them." It was a fabulous decade also at Microsoft, working in various different projects, working at scale. I mean, you're,literally serving billions of people across the world. And, uh, uh, there are not too many places where you can say that, that you've worked on something that has reached over a billion people.And the work, work my teams did, did that, and it was just always a gratifying experience. So I learned a lot about how to ship software at scale. 

My next step out of that was at Groupon, where it was again, a fantastic place where I learned a lot about how to build products, um, that are two-sided marketplaces, which again, I didn't realize that coming-- like that this would help me years down the line at Kiva, which eends up being a two-sided marketplace, if you will, there are lenders and borrowers. And I learned a lot about, uh, how to build really great marketplaces. And again, the-- to me, the thread through line over there was you're helping the little guy, if you will. We help, peyou know, ople think about Groupon in many ways as, where you're g-getting coupons and, you know, buying things, um, uh, you know, getting, getting a discount off something. But if you think about how Groupon is from the merchants’ side, the people who are actually providing services, it actually enables a lot of, uh, businesses to stay in business. And to me the mission I felt for Groupon when I was there, I felt was very merchant-oriented, where we enabled the businesses who otherwise would not have succeeded stay in business because of being able to advertise and market and bring customers into their businesses. So I found that to be a wonderful mission of how do you, help, shops and customers, merchants down the in your neighborhood, uh, actually succeed. 

Scott M. Curran: One of my clients who's a pretty famous, or former clients now, but, but someone I worked with for f- over five years is a A-list Hollywood celebrity who gave me the first time the hashtag impact in everything. There is impact in everything. You just have to look for it. And it doesn't always mean that there's positive impact, right? 'Cause there's negative to all things. Even when we work in philanthropy, there's negative sides to it. But there is impact in everything. So the question is, what kind of impact are we having? I find it interesting and awesome that you were seeing at Groupon that it wasn't just about building the better coupon, it was about helping people stay in business, which obviously has a direct tie to, to where you are today. I love that you were finding it anyway because I encourage so many young people who reach out, and I'm sure you do too, uh, especially young lawyers who wanna live a life of purpose, but also have the realities of life. They have to pay back their loans, especially if they've gone to grad school or an expensive one, and they're increasingly all expensive. How do I live a life of impact if I feel I have to go work at this place to just earn a buck? And I said, "I have great news. There's impact in everything." There are things you can do in every organization where you will find impact if and when you look for it. It doesn't matter how commercially transactional the business may appear on its face, there will be impact in everything you do when you look for it. And I think that awareness and the intentionality is such a huge part of it. Sounds like you've had that at each point throughout your career.

Vishal Ghotge: I think you said it so much more beautifully, because especially at Groupon, I did have an existential crisis at a point where I was thinking like, "What am, what am I really doing? Is this something I wanna do?" And I was thinking about whether I should be doing something else, and that's where actually I got the opportunity of leading the merchant team over there. And that changed my perspective because I went, talked to a bunch of customers, and this was actually a gym which is down the street from here, who was a Groupon customer and on the merchant side, and I was talking to him, interviewing him, and that's where he said, "Fifty percent of my new business comes from Groupon customers coming in."And it's... I had to pause over there where it's like, if Groupon goes out of business tomorrow, this guy's gym goes out of business tomorrow. And it just gave me this, like, this is aha. It's like that's why I'm doing what I'm doing, and okay, bring it on, right? Uh, you need to... You, you said it right. You have to have the right frame, and you need to make sure that you are clear about what is the impact that you're producing, and then, um, you know, dive right in. And there is impact in everything, if you have the right, um, right perspective. 

Scott M. Curran: So then you, you went PayScale and Remitly. And, and I wanna start moving towards like why the work of financial institutions, and ultimately we'll get to Kiva, but why that matters, why remittance services matters, why, why transferability of, of economic assets really matters, especially for the stakeholders you serve now. We'll get to Kiva in a second, but what was it about your trajectory that pulled you from Groupon to PayScale and then Remitly? 

Vishal Ghotge: PayScale, again, was an extremely mission-driven organization where helping individuals, uh, you know, provide transparency of what is the right pay. So you can vouch—the more transparency there is, the more equality that you can create and the more opportunity that you can create, and that's what, what PayScale did. It helped both employers as well as individuals, uh, generate pay transparency. So it was both again, a mission-driven organization and also from pure career perspective, it was a-- I got to lead the product organization of the entire org, of an entire company. I learnt a lot, reported to a c-- to a CEO for the first time, got to see a whole bunch how it works, when you're reporting directly to the CEO, uh, uh, and I learnt a lot over there. And then, uh, you know, I was-- Remitly was just the-- felt like the, the place where I was meant to be at because there was a such a, again, a mission-driven organization, but also something I could completely relate to because I'm an immigrant in this country. I came as an immigrant. Sending money back to my parents was something that I did all the time, and I could understand both the needs as well as the opportunities in that space, and I could relate to the customer directly. And you know, it, it's very-- it's wonderful when you can actually be in a place where you are building products and services when there is a direct empathy for the customer segment that you're serving. And it helped me be in a place where people around me had the same values as I did, and we were serving a segment that I had deep empathy for.

Scott M. Curran: I love it. So was there a point at any specific time in that, or was this through line just the ever-present one, where you felt a pull towards making a change to be more specifically tied to impact, or was it just a gradual stepping that, that led you to Kiva? Was there a point where you're like, "I wanna do more of this, and I need to make a leap to do it"? 

Vishal Ghotge: I would be lying if I said I planned this all out, and it was, like, perfect. It wasn't. Every time I took a step, I did make sure that I was the place where I was going to, was aligned in terms of, you know, where I wanted to be. The more options you have, the more you can be choosy and picky. Sometimes you don't. So, I wouldn't say that, "Oh, I had perfectly planned this route out." You do, as I mentioned, when you do look back, you see, "Ah, this is all-- this all made sense. It's connected." But, uh, it wasn't perfectly planned. And even Kiva, I was on a sabbatical after leaving Remitly, and I wasn't looking to be leading a nonprofit organization. I was going to, you know, take upagain, a job where I could be aligned with the values and mission of the organization, doing something meaningful. Um, but this, you know, sometimes good things happen in steps, and great things happens all, all at once, and this was one of those, that they were-- Kiva was looking for.

Scott M. Curran: For those who don't know, so for those who might know the name Kiva but don't know what they do, give the average person who, who isn't familiar that top-line pitch of what Kiva does and, and why this matters. And I, I think we could actually spend quite a bit of time here. I actually started when I left the Clinton School of Public Service and took a one-year fellowship at the Clinton Foundation, I started working on doing program work, and I was primarily focused on rural America, which isn't one place and doesn't have one issue. It's, it's really more of a description of lots of places throughout. And we started focusing quickly on pervasively poor communities throughout the country, eighty-five percent of which plus are rural and primarily found in the Mississippi Delta region, which includes sixteen counties here in my home state of Illinois, also a U of I grad. The Mississippi Delta region, the Appalachian region, Texas border communities, um, and Native American reservations throughout the country, which are bery geographically diverse. And I learned the phrases unbanked and underbanked, and there's some context clues in those two words, but I had no idea what it meant or how pervasive it was here in the United States. And then as I was sort of opening up to this world of philanthropy and international issues, I realized exactly how much bigger an issue it is elsewhere. So bring the uninformed listener up to speed on why Kiva exists before we get into what it does uniquely well. 

Vishal Ghotge: Yeah, I'll, I'll build on top of what you were saying in terms of unbanked and underbanked. There are over one point three billion people across the globe today who are excluded from the financial system. And what this means is things that you and I take for granted, being able to open a bank account, being able to take a loan for starting something, an idea that you have, being able to put money in a savings account. They, they just don't have access to these basic, what would we say, rights that we take for granted today. And Kiva exists to serve this population. And our belief is we want to build a--our mission is building a financially inclusive world where every person has the right to better their own future. And we believe that, you know, opportunity is, uh, universal. Uh, sorry, talent is universal, but opportunity is not, and that's what we are trying to equalize. And when we are talking aboutthe people we are serving, these are the farmer-- a farmer in Kenya, a fisherman in Philippines, a refugee in Uganda,  basket weaver in El Salvador.

So these are people who know how to improve their own lives, the lives of their families and communities, but don't have access to basics like capital to grow their businesses. And so what Kiva does is crowdfunds money from individuals across the world, people like you and me who can put twenty-five dollars, fifty dollars, hundred dollars, whatever money they feel they want to contribute, put it all together, and then help make a loan happen to a low-income entrepreneur like the farmer in Kenya or the fisherman in Philippines, so that they can invest in their business, grow it, and then once they're done with it, repay that money back to you so that you can then give it to the next person.

So it isn't charity. It's actually an investment. It's capital investment in their business, uh, that you are making and that you get repaid for. Um, we've now-- Kiva, as you said, we start-- Kiva started in two thousand and five. This is Kiva's twentieth year. Over the last twenty years, we have moved over two-- close to two and a half billion dollars, uh, to over five million such entrepreneurs, uh, in eighty different countries.And ninety-six percent of that money has come back to the individual lenders, which is just phenomenal. 

Scott M. Curran: For the average person who may be less familiar with social finance, impact investing, where all of this fits, in traditional philanthropy, a grant maker may make a grant to an organization that then lends money out, and that money's gone. This is different. This microfinance model is different because it expects a repayment. It doesn't expect profit in all cases. In some cases, in derivative models, it does. But in this case, it, it's just a hand up, as some might say, not a handout, as others might say. So for those who are less familiar with this, this is a loan for a short period of time with an expected payback that helps that small entrepreneur build their dream. And a ninety-six to ninety-seven percent payback rate means that every one of these small farmers, fishermen, or entrepreneurs in places around the world many of us will never be or see with our own eyes, are paying those back. That's extraordinary. How does that compare to commercial banks here in the United States where somebody, another small business might go and get a loan?

Vishal Ghotge: It actually, so it, it actually works, uh, pretty similar where I think ... I would say SBA default rate is somewhere around 3% or so. So it is, it ... I mean, it's amazing that it compares because here you're asking for collateral and soft credit history, and you're probably denying a whole bunch of people, and only the people who you can trust, can see, and those are the people getting the loan. And you're not talking about people who don't have any of that history repaying at the same rate, which is just phenomenal. 

Scott M. Curran: Which, uh, the simplicity of the model and the fact that it works and that it shows the, the, the nature of humans to want to, to be part of growing and becoming something bigger and, and receiving and repaying is extraordinary because they aren't required to put up a piece of land for collateral or anything else. This is this beauty of what started as giving circles with the Grameen model and the like, and has now taken it online. What I found so incredible—so in 2005, I was a fifth-year corporate lawyer who'd kind of gone back to school on a bit of a whim to, to expose my, my brain and my life to a new, a new world, and I didn't really know a lot about philanthropy. I was struck by two things. One, like, how seismic so many of these issues are and seem and feel to us. Like, global poverty or helping people work themselves out of poverty or just get an opportunity to get a hand up in a, in a business that makes a lot of sense, that seems impossible to a kid who grew up in the Chicago suburbs and who's practiced corporate law and is familiar with commercial banking and collateral and, and everything else. And literally, it was 2005, I left and went to the Clinton School, and sort of, like, my eyes opened. I felt like this world just, like, turned from black and white to color for me, and I was like, this huge problem and this huge planet got so much smaller because this platform. And Kiva was brand new and had sort of burst onto the scene at—the early 2000s was a very vibrant time in philanthropy and tech. And, and so it was truly exciting. And I was like, you are literally connected in real time, almost face to face. It wasn't like a live Zoom chat or anything, but you're seeing a picture of this entrepreneur and often their family. You're seeing their storefront or their shop or their fishing boat and, and then you see the practical need of, like, a fishing net or new equipment or a generator. And immediately in that moment, you feel connected in a really meaningful way to this big problem. 

And in addition to that connection, you have two other things. You have the ability to contribute in real time a manageable amount of money, for many of us 25 bucks can go a long way. And often you would see like the tote board going of like how much more that person needed to get to their goal of three hundred.

And you might do twenty-five hundred or you might do the whole amount, and you were sort of motivated to do it. But then you find yourself in the company of these other donors just like you who are equally inspired to engage. And the thing I loved about it in 2005 when this whole world of philanthropy—and to say nothing of like microfinance or impact investing or social finance or however you wanna describe what it's become since—was just made practical, tangible, real, accessible, and meaningful. And then you got to share the story of the person you just helped, and then you would get updates and notices. Tell us about the value and the power of that community. What has changed since two thousand and five, and what hasn't about that ecosystem? 

Vishal Ghotge: Yes. I think what you said, to me, the true-- one of the key innovations that Kiva brought was really expanding the participation pool of everyday individuals in this world of impact investing, and making it accessible to them as exactly as you said, at a level that they were comfortable with. And the transparency it created in terms of what exactly is happening. Oftenin the philanthropy world, there is a, there could be black box, like, "I did this, but I don't know what exactly happened." I think here there was a level of transparency where you know exactly where it's going, what's going to happen, and you can see the outcomes of it, which is just fabulous.

 So what Kiva does is creates impact on both sides of that loan. Like there is clearly the impact that's happening on the entrepreneur whose life is, um, who can, who can better their own lives with this capital investment. But there is also impact happening on the side of the lender, the donor, because it builds--starts building this connected world. It starts spreading empathy, and you can see the lives of somebody who, uh, is half a world away from you, uh, and you can be a participant in that change, and you feel like you're learning something. And you're doing more than, uh, you know, contributing, but you're learning, and then you are, uh, doing it with dignity. 

What I, what I really loved about Kiva was there is, there was a, there was a level playing field in some ways, where you're not giving charity to someone, but you are saying, "You know what you're doing. I am just giving you investment that, that you, you deserve to get because if you were some-somewhere in, in the developed world, you would get that investment, and I'm making that available to you."

So that dignity and transparency were just unique, and that's why Kiva spread like wildfire when it started. And, you know, over two million people across the world—I think around two point two million people across the world—have been, uh, lenders on Kiva, which is just fabulous. In every single country across the world. And so that transparency and a connected feeling is universal. It's not just in one place or one country. Everyone across the world wants to do that, and that's, that's something that was always unique about Kiva. 

Scott M. Curran: Here's part of my approach. Humans are wired for good biologically, chemically. We all... We, we love doing good. We love seeing other people do good. And when we know that we can make an impact for others, almost all of us will always choose to do it. We don't check people's backgrounds or IDs or political affiliations or anything else. If, if we can hold the door open for someone, we will. If we can help someone across the street, we will. If we can help somebody get a step up, we will. We almost always do it as humans. It's, it's our innate nature, and it's contagious when we see it 'cause we get the same feelings about doing good when we just watch other people do good. And what I found amazing by Kiva, about Kiva early on, I, I still remember sitting in my parents' living room showing kiva.org to people. We had just given the, I think they're called Kiva cards now. I don't know if they were called Kiva cards back in two thousand and five, but they were gift cards. And I'd given them to other people who were at our family Christmas and saying, "You have to get on and look at this. Look at this. You can help these people."

And that, that positivity and enthusiasm is innate to who we are as humans, and it's contagious when we share it with others. So, you know, I'm thrilled that, that over twenty years later, you're still here, and that  humans are still wired for it against everything we see in the world. I wonder if you'd be able to drill down a little bit and speak to why almost everybody in global development, regardless of how they address the issues, prioritize women, refugees, the underbanked in the United States, and those disparately impacted by changes in the climate.And 'cause that is, if I understand correctly, the, the primary focus of Kiva now. For those who may not be familiar with why that's the case, give us 101  on that demographic siloing and why it matters. 

Vishal Ghotge: Great. So firstly, we are still a broad-based financial inclusion as well. We... That's something that we, uh, always will be. But what we have found out is when we go deeper on verticals, we are able to create more systemic change as well. And what we've done over the past several years is looked at what are the areas, what is the intersection of areas where there is need in the world. And where we feel Kiva can be uniquely positioned to actually go deeper in. And so from there these four verticals emerged. 

Refugees, I'll start with. This was again, an eye-opener for us when we, we were one of the first-- we s-started funding our partners who were helping refugee borrowers, uh, start their lives in their new countries. And…if you think people are financially excluded, then refugees are probably the extreme of that, where they, they landed in a new country, where they don't even have any history, and starting anything is just really hard. When we've helped our-- fund these re-refugee entrepreneurs, we found that their repayment rates were actually higher than the repayment rates, even across microfinance. So our prepayment rates for refugees are over ninety-seven percent. And when you think about it, it's actually not that surprising because they, they want to prove, you know, they are even more determined to succeed. Um, but anyway, I think that helped us prove a point that refugees are-- like refugee is just a label. These are humans who want to do well, and if you can trust and give them access, they will, uh, succeed. And so we wanted to go deep on, uh, refugees since unfortunately, the world is doing its job of creating more and more refugees. And so, uh, that's an area where we feel we are uniquely positioned because of the data we have and the passion we have for helping our refugees succeed. So that's a vertical that we are, are deeply invested in. 

The second is, uh, as you men-mentioned, women. Uh, we have, uh, like there is just universal data already, and Kiva has data as well, is women entrepreneurs, um, not only repay loans at a much higher rate and much more successfully, but more than that, when we see women entrepreneurs being funded, and successful, there is so much more societal change that happens in where they are. Kids get educated, families prosper, communities prosper. And Like there is, there is no... There's, there's just like enough data, research, uh, and evidence out there that just makes both financial sense and social change to fund women entrepreneurs. 

Scott M. Curran: When-- And this is not a... there's not a one-size-fits-all for anybody, but there are certain realities, which is that occasionally we men, as a gender, spend our money on other things that aren't as high a priority to a family or society. Whereas when the women entrepreneurs, who are really great entrepreneurs, are successful, they are literally reinvesting their success in the education of their children, in the improvement of their household, in other families in their communities. They are making super smart decisions with this. And again, there's no one-size-fits-all for anything, but that's a really powerful force multiplier and makes sense therefore to double down or really prioritize that investment. Far beyond the gender lens alone, just the societal impact of, hey, if you know that this one always pays off and reduce-- and, and results in better dividends down the line, that is a sound and smart investment. So that's why if you are a, a Kiva giver or you, you want to become one, you know, just a huge shout-out for the exponential value that you help make possible when you invest in women entrepreneurs.

Vishal Ghotge: Well said, Scott. Uh, the third vertical is climate-threatened people. This is, again, unfortunately, this is a crisis that is deepening. And the, the people who are the most, uh, underprivileged are impacted the most unfortunately. And so we, we know that s- uh, smallholder farmers or people living where there isn't access to clean energy, uh, there is, there is a lot more impact that those people have, and they don't have the access to financial finances to actually improve their conditions. And so being able to, um, uh, f-fund entrepreneurs who are threatened by climate, uh, is again, a place where Kiva has been-- has enough evidence that we can show how we can create change, and also there is a massive need. Uh, we also-- This is another place where we... There are so many social enterprises, uh, that are doing just phenomenal work, whether it is helping provide clean energy, whether it's helping provide technology that can help, uh, you know, do sustainable farming, um, or whether it is, uh, you know, uh, providing clean water, access to clean water.

 There's so many social enterprises that are doing work, and they need funding, and we are able to... We, we see that when we are able to fund some of these social enterprises that are otherwise not able to raise the capital, uh, through traditional means. We are not only help them succeed in their initial Uh, starting their businesses, but then they are able to get follow-on funding that can help them succeed and multiply the impact.

So climate is an area where Kiva is uniquely positioned to, uh, help borrowers directly, help social enterprises such that they can scale their impact work. learly an area where we want to c- continue more deepening our impact, um, and, uh, helping more people get access to financing. 

Scott M. Curran: I may not be right about this at all, but my assumption is that those who are disproportionately impacted by climate changes would include a, a large portion of would include- Mm-hmm farmers and fishermen. Fa-- Yes. Is that right? 

Vishal Ghotge: Uh, farmers, I, I think disproportionately farmers, uh, especially smallholder farmers. 

Scott M. Curran: Okay. And so why that matters to the average person listening, who feeds and clothes our country, any country? It's the farmers. And so we don't have to have a debate about climate. We don't have to, to just know that we see more wildfires burning more intensely more often. We see other climate catastrophes happening more often. So we can put the entire culture war debate about the climate aside and still live with the reality that tornadoes tear up cornfields, that fires burn everything in, in their way, and that these things happen to p- farmers all over the planet. It's them that we rely on for the food we eat, the clothes we wear, the trucking and industry that fuels so much of the rest of our economy. So the, uh, you may not be a farmer. The chances are you probably aren't, but you really care about farmers being able to make a living. And I don't wanna skip ahead too much, but I do wanna come to the US piece of this, which is that this is not, and I hate that we're using the phrase Third World as much as I'm hearing it in popular news.

 We usually, we evolved, in recent decades to use the phrase developing nations, developing countries, and developing communities. Whether I'm speaking to them or, or people who identify with that, you can use them interchangeably. And so, um, in that case, it is not specific to those countries. It is also here in the United States, and this is what I learned back in two thousand and five. So this isn't a current landscape commentary. This is a reality. This is what some people call systemic. It's not a dirty word. It's not a political word. It's not a cultural word. It's a real word, which is we have systemic challenges and systemic problems.

In the United States, we think everybody has access to a bank. Or that everybody who has access to a bank is using it in ways that they can just simply go and swipe their ATM card and get ahead, and that's not the case. So I know there's some data around how many households are unbanked and underbanked in the United States, and I know where they are. They're predominantly rural. They are predominantly in red states. So again, this is not political. This is trying to help all people in all places without checking anybody's voter ID or voter, um, preferences or, or ID cards. Could you speak to the unbanked and underbanked in the United States and, and, and help people who don't realize exactly how important an issue that is wrap their heads around it?

Vishal Ghotge: Yes, absolutely, and this is one of the. Again, as Kiva evolved, one of the realizations, uh, we had also, yes, there is inequity in the world, but there is inequity right here in our backyard, and we need to... It's like if there is the access to financial resources, if it can help solve problems for people, for the farmer in Kenya and for the refugee in Uganda, it also helps solve the problem for the person here in the US who otherwise is will not be able to take a loan to start their small business.

And so we started lending in Kiva in, in the US as well. And again, lending to people who otherwise will not get, uh, loans, not from a bank, but often not even, CDFIs. I think we are, we are, we want to be the first rung of the ladder that helps people climb that financial system, so then they can go and migrate into, um, in-into the fi-formal financial system. So get them that first access to capital. And over the last ten years in the US alone, we have lent close to eighty or ninety million dollars, uh, to, uh, small business entrepreneurs who are starting their f- like just starting their first business or trying to expand their business, who otherwise don't have access to, uh, funding. And again, primarily goes to, people, uh, who are, uh, outside the financial system here in the US as well. 

Scott M. Curran: Yeah, and I want people who may not be familiar with this to understand the magnitude of it. We're talking about 5.6 million American families or households that are unbanked at all, meaning they have no relationship with a bank.They have no ability to go get a line of credit or get a loan or do anything that we might think is available, quote-unquote, to everyone. That there are 5.6 million of our friends and neighbors who don't have that relationship or that—or to even know to go—how to start that relationship. But even more than that, there, there's triple that number, 19 million US households that are underbanked. They may have an account at a bank, but they're not using it or they're not leveraging it or they're not using a, a positive credit score or don't know how to engage with the bank to increase their credit score. And so this is a reality. We don't have to like it, and we shouldn't like it. We should do the work we can to try to address it, and Kiva is exactly one way to do that.

And so this is not a first world/third world problem. This is not a developed nation or an under-underdeveloped nation or a developing nation. This is a human issue, and Kiva provides a single platform for anybody to go on and have a positive impact in any of these places. It's your choice, which I think is so fun and so awesome, and it's so educational in real time. I've used it with my kids. It's a wonderful family engagement tool and an awareness-building tool. Are there any stories... So, so get, like, granular. I'm curious, are there any stories in the international context, US or anything, success stories, personally poignant stories that really stick out to you that speak to Kiva's success and what people have done to—what the transformation Kiva makes possible for either individuals or communities?

Vishal Ghotge: So many, Scott. I mean, the stories are the ones that fuel this whole engine, and I've had the opportunity of meeting so many of our partners and so many of our, uh, entrepreneurs that it's hard to pick one, but I will pick one. I think it's a-- this is a recent one. I was in Nairobi visiting one of our partners.

It's a wonderful social enterprise called Jibu. They provide clean water to millions of people across Africa, and they do it in a such an innovative way,  help build, franchisee model where they, you know, local people build franchisees that help build a clean water filtration plant and then supply clean water to people in their community. 

So they're doing just multiple level, levels of social impact. So we were visiting some of the franchisee owners for Jibu in Nairobi, and I was talking to entrepreneur. His name was, I think, Abdel, and he was speaking to us in Swahili through through his, through a translator, and he was talking about how Starting that business changed his life in how he was able to build, uh, start the first store, then get a motorcycle to deliver, then he was looking to get a truck, and all through, you know, the loans that they were provided through Jibu and Kiva. 

But what was transformational, honestly, was not-- it's not just the money, but then he said how because of starting that business, he was perceived in his community. And, you know, when he spoke about that, I-- we did not need a translator because he just, he stood up, straight, and he was just talking with this pride that now I am a business owner and people, you know, my, my friends and family look at me differently. And that's this-- that's the dignity, right? That's, that's what we are looking to... As I mentioned earlier, there was opportunity, is not universal, talent is. And this was, like, it's not a slogan, it was this man's life right in front. And it, you know, changes like that make it all worthwhile because we are enabling through the small steps that each individual is taking, whether it's a twenty-five dollar step, fifty dollar step, you are making changes in lives of people around the world and giving them dignity.

Scott M. Curran: So that's one story that comes to mind, but there are honestly hundreds of others like this. Our, our mutual colleague in this space of doing good in the world, Hamdi Ulukaya, the founder of Chobani, for those who may not be familiar, and the founder of Tent.org, which is another great organization that works on the refugee crisis, says that somebody stops being a refugee the day they get a job because we identify ourselves so much with our, our work. And if you're a listener wondering, like, "Does this apply to me?" Just think about yourself and think about when people ask who you are, what you do, how often you respond with something about your work. I mean, many of us say we're also, you know, parents and children and, you know, spouses and things like that, but we so often start with or end with our credentials and the platform we stand on as a result of that. So what I hear in a story like that is that you help people fundamentally transform their identity, not just as people who do more than just live in the world, but become something greater and, and give back and contribute both to their families and their communities, wherever those communities may be, geographically or professionally.

 I’m curious what is something that your work at Kiva in particular, obviously it could apply to all your work, but what is it-- what has your work at Kiva taught you about humanity that you think more people in the world need to know? When there is an opportunity for people to contribute, and you show them that small steps can actually lead to a, a great impact. 

Vishal Ghotge: I, I feel there's, there's sometimes a lot ofdoom and gloom that, uh, everyone looks at, and I, I don't see it that way because I feel there is-- the people genuinely want to. It's our opportunity, people in this space to show a path and show how it can be done. And I think people will be there to, uh, because they wanna fundamentally do good. And on the other side, I see all these, especially these social entrepreneurs, like I talked about Jibu as an example, and hundreds of other social enterprises that we work with. People working in the hardest areas in the world, um, trying to solve really complex problems, and they are doing all the hard work. And if we can figure out how we can help fund them, we can solve some of the hardest problems in the world. There are people innovating and doing that. There's a more simple problem that the world can solve is: how do you move money over there? Uh, which is much more tractable than solving some of the hard problems.

Working at Kiva has given me a lot more hope in humanity in terms of our ability to come together and solve problems and take on some hard challenges that otherwise look untractable. 

Scott M. Curran: Thank you for that. We'll finish with instructions about how people can and should take a next step to, to engage on the Kiva platform. But before that, I wanna, I wanna solicit one more piece of advice from you to... I'll be teaching my law school class in the, in the spring again. Um, I regularly, and I'm sure you do too, get all kinds of requests for informational interviews, and I love, I love doing that. I love speaking to people who wanna do good in the world, but they don't always see the linear path. So zooming back out to you as a professional in the world, giving advice to a late teenager, early twenty-something, or maybe even a thirty or forty-something who's considering a career pivot, who may be hearing us talk about how it's easier to connect the dots looking backwards. What's the best advice you would give to somebody who aspires towards a career where they find impact in everything, um, but may not see the path ahead of them? What inspiration can you provide them about their journey ahead? 

Vishal Ghotge: If you think it purely from a career perspective, career arcs are long. Uh, there is impact, as I mentioned. There's impact that you can create in everything, and it's also sometimes not the what you're doing, it's also how you're doing it, how you treat, how you treat people around you. I've had some of the most meaningful experiences of my life based on how my managers have treated me, what they've taught me, and, you know, it leads to, it leads to impact down the line. Andso just think about, have patience, do the work that you're doing with the highest integrity. Do it from a perspective of there's always you can think about who am I serving, and do it from a perspective of, uh, serving it well. And then every opportunity you have, if that helps you align your work with the, your deepest values, take that, take that path. Um, but I think the-- I would not, as I mentioned, things makes a lot of sense when you look back as well.

 So I would not leave with the fact of saying, "Oh, you have to do a follow a certain path to create impact." I would find impact in what you're doing right now, and then take the step when, when it, when it comes to you, or you can find that, that, that there is a, you can create a deeper alignment between your values and your work.

Scott M. Curran: It makes a lot of sense, and I haven't shared this in, in any other prior recordings, but again, I've seen so many, uh, common threads in your trajectory and, and, and I've learned even more in this, in this conversation for which I am personally and deeply grateful because like I went to law school never wanting to be a lawyer, and then I wound up practicing corporate law for five years knowing that that was inconsistent with my goal of not being a practicing lawyer in the way that I, younger me thought I would be. And I was like: “Well, wait, did I do this wrong?” And I, I don't know why I had... I'll, I'll give it, give credit to, to great parents and upbringing and teachers and mentors to like so-- I, I was like, "I don't know what's coming next. I know I'm not gonna do this forever, but I'm gonna soak up everything I'm learning from this and trust that it is preparing me for what comes next." And then again, I took a random pivot to go back to school, having no idea what I would do with it, thinking I might default and boomerang back to the law. But I wound up at one, at the time, a very fast-growing foundation named after a young former president. And I, and I started doing program work. I started doing that rural philanthropy work where we focused on the earned income tax credit and banking the unbanked and, and, and better banking the underbanked and working on this issue of predatory lenders and payday lenders and things like that, which are almost always in predominantly rural and poor places or urban and poor places, um, but preying on people who needed a better and healthier financial life. And then one day, we accidentally started the legal department when my boss walked past my door, backtracked in and said: "Wait, you're a lawyer. Read this." And then ten years later, I was general counsel, which I never could have done any of it. But for those five years of practicing corporate law when I was wondering whether I was on the wrong path.

And so I just, you know, I love that you worked on Windows and Windows Phone, and I love that you moved in the spaces in the ways that you did, and I love that you also see how we can connect the dots looking backwards. And my, my fervent hope, any students listening to this, any young people working through your career right now, or any people who are well into your career and wondering whether it's too late to make a pivot towards purpose, I know what my answer is.What's yours? 

Vishal Ghotge: It's never too late. Never too late. For sure. And I-- Go, go-- One thing I would add is since you talked about, Hamdi Ulukaya, I, I'm a big fan of his. One of the things he talks about is, uh, you-you'll probably recollect this, paint the walls, uh, which is, uh, you know, when he started. Well, I'll tell, retell that story when he started his first factory, and he had no idea what to exactly do, and he had, like four or five employees, and they asked him, "What am I going to do?" He said, "Um, let's go to Home Depot, get buckets of paint, and paint the walls outside." And they were all looking at him, "I hope you have more ideas than that." And, he said, "But let's, let's get started with painting the walls." And which is really a great metaphor for, like, start somewhere. Start with something, and just get started.

So that's, that's, that's... I would leave with the other thing, like just get started with something. 

Scott M. Curran: It's such a, a wonderful story. I'm so glad you shared that. And I, I have heard him tell that story as well, and I think it, it proves a really powerful quote that is one of my favorites, which is that momentum begets momentum. Taking one action is better than thinking about taking two actions. And so I love that. It was an unintentional but wonderful segue to what is the thing somebody listening who's not yet on Kiva or familiar with Kiva can do next to engage with your platform, and then what should we all be excited about what's happening next at Kiva? So what, what's a practical step somebody can take next, and then tell us something that you're excited about at Kiva that we could be excited about. 

Vishal Ghotge: Great. Well, it's very simple. Go to kiva dot, www.kiva.org, and you will be greeted with, um, profiles of a whole bunch of, um, entrepreneurs who are, um, looking for funding their small business, and you'll read their profiles and see what speaks out to you and contribute as much as you can. Again, you're not, um, giving them charity, you're actually investing in their business. Uh, so I would encourage re-- uh, everyone listening to go to kiva.org and, uh, make a loan to somebody who speaks to whose profile speaks to you. And what we are excited about, quite a few innovations coming up.

One of the things we are starting, we're in the beta phase of right now, is this, um, a product experience we're building called Giving Funds,where we are, you know, traditionally how Kiva has worked is you can go, you know, make a loan, and, keep, keep doing that as much as you want. But we've heard a lot from people who want to do it with a bunch of people together. So we are creating this, uh, product experience called, um, uh, Giving Funds, where you can start a, um, a, a fund, if you will, for yourself, and then you can have others join and contribute together, and you can together, uh, put your money in it and then s- uh, have it automatically, uh, revolve for the causes that you are passionate about. And then you can use it to even fundraise more money, saying, "Hey, Scott, you believe in women entrepreneurs." And you can say, "I wanna create a fund that is constantly funding women entrepreneurs in a particular country." And you, you can start it and then get your friends and family together, and together you can create the impact and see, uh, you know, how it's working.

So we're, we're starting that as an experience and see how it can help, um, us bring more funding, uh, to people who deserve it. 

Scott M. Curran: For listeners who are wondering whether you have to have a lot of money to have a lot of impact, whether you need to build a big vehicle or a bigger profile or a bigger platform to have an impact on the lives of others or to engage in helping to address some of the world's biggest problems, the answer is no, because Kiva has created that platform for you. And I hope that anybody who is less familiar with it or maybe hasn't been there in a while and who hears this podcast runs, doesn't walk to get back to kiva.org. I know that I'm doing the same. Um, get involved because every action matters, and this is an easier way to take an immediate action, have an immediate impact than ever before.

Vishal, I am so glad you, your grandpa was that great example for you, how proud he must be of his grandson now. I'm glad that your career journey took you in all the ways and directions it did, including our shared alma mater of University of Illinois. I'm really grateful for your example of better good in the world today, and I'm incredibly grateful that you spent this time with us today.

Vishal Ghotge: Thank you so much. Thank you, Scott. Thanks for having me and for this wonderful conversation. 

Scott M. Curran: Thank you for tuning in to the Better Good podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please remember to rate, review, subscribe and share. You can watch the show on YouTube or Spotify. And for those who prefer to listen, we're on all major podcast platforms, including Apple Podcasts. If you wanna learn more about how you can do more good, better in your life and work, you can also find me on Instagram threads, LinkedIn, or subscribe to my Substack. You can find links to all of these at www.scottmcurran.com 

Better Good is a Beyond Creative production. My executive producers are Kieron Banerjee and Aaron Shulman. Production is by Echo Studios in partnership with Palm Tree Island. Remember, the world's biggest problems won't wait, and neither should you.