Scott M. Curran: What does it look like when a politician actually does their job? Not the culture warring, not cable news, not pitting you against your neighbor to score political points, but the actual job. The one where they show up every day, not only for the people who voted for them, but for all the people they now serve. And we all measure success by outcomes instead of optics. 

It almost sounds quaint, doesn't it? We are living through a moment when the question of what real politics and service looks like feels harder to answer than it should. So on this episode, we're going to Oklahoma City to find the answer. 

Mayor David Holt leads what he calls a purple city in a deep red state. And he does it with a style that feels downright inspirational in the charged, hyperpartisan moment in which our nation currently finds itself. David is pragmatic, pluralistic, and laser-focused on outcomes for the people he serves. Because potholes, streetlights, and true economic and community development simply don't care about your politics.But they do all benefit from great public service. 

Sounds refreshing, doesn't it? It's because it is. David's example is a reminder of what politics and service is really about. 

Welcome to Better Good. The show where you learn how the best do good and how you can too. I'm your host Scott Curran. For 25 years, I've served as a corporate lawyer, an in-house general counsel and an advisor to some of the most extraordinary social impact work spanning the private sector, philanthropy and social enterprises. On this podcast, I talk to the innovators, reimagining how the world does good, bringing you candid and inspiring conversations and practical advice, guidance, and tools you can use in your life and at work. If doing good is something you care about, you're in the right place because the world's biggest problems won't wait and neither should you.

When first elected, David Holt was the youngest mayor of Oklahoma City and more than a century, and as a member of the Osage Nation, he was also its first Native American mayor. He was named to the TIME 100 Next list by TIME Magazine. He's also the 83rd president of the United States Conference of Mayors, which is basically the closest thing America has to a mayor-in-chief at a time when local elected leaders, and especially mayors are more important than ever. 

David proves the key to cutting through political noise is by simply creating results for the entire public one serves. Beyond being bipartisan, it's non-partisan, it's cross partisan, and it's even at times anti-partisan. 

On a personal note, I first met David during the return of the Clinton Global Initiative three years ago. On our way to New York, my wife Amy, a native Oklahoman, told me she was especially eager to meet Mayor David Holt given his steadfast and pragmatic leadership through the pandemic, which was just ending. On our first evening in New York, we ran into friends from Arkansas on the street corner. The group grew when the mayor of Little Rock, Arkansas arrived to join the conversation. Then David walked by recognizing Mayor Scott from Little Rock, and joined in the conversation as well. That began our friendship with and support of David Holt as a great leader, a great example, and a great human. 

This is Better Good and here's my conversation with the mayor of Oklahoma City, David Holt. 

Scott M. Curran: I have a feeling I, I know where your answer to my first question might go, but I'm curious if you've ever been asked it and if you've ever answered on a podcast before, and it's this: if you think back to the very first time, as early as possible in your life when you came to the realization that doing good was something that humans did or that people in your life did, or maybe even something that you could do as a result? What is that memory of that discovery? 

David Holt: Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, no. First of all, no one's ever asked me that before, I don't think. But secondly, um, I was somebody, I felt like my family, in retrospect now as I analyze it, was always very service-oriented. I mean, my dad was a school teacher. My mom was a social worker, but when I was born, she kinda left the workforce and was just really focused on me, but was always PTA president and volunteering. Sounds like much like your mom. 

So perhaps from that I was somebody who was always really active. I mean, I was the sixth grade student council president. I was the sophomore class president. I was so on and so on. You know, I've been doing this for a long time. But I think to your point, I mean you often, uh, especially as a young person, you do those things just sort of reflexively. You're not really like thinking about it as a conscious choice. You're just sort of a pinball through life at that point. And perhaps you are just sort of emulating maybe what you've seen or just chasing what seems interesting. But again, I don't think there's a lot of self-analysis happening at that age. So I think it was really,  probably in college—and I went to George Washington University in D.C.—because I was attracted to politics, I thought like had a vague sense that I wanted to be in Washington, but I definitely entered college with like a list of, you know, eight different careers that were all over the map, you know, and not necessarily, uh, in public service. So at least not in in this sense. 

Yeah, I think it was really in college when I really realized the gratification I get from helping people and I kind of like narrowed it down to this, to this thought, which may or may not ring true to anyone else. But I remember thinking, “Well, it's kind of like if you wanna be somebody who can just go up to strangers and offer help, you either need to be like in the clergy or a politician.” Like that was like how I thought of it. Like, if I just wanna just like walk up to somebody and say, how, how can I help you and not be viewed as like a crazy person? You, you need to be either in elected office or you need to be wearing a collar. And I guess I thought that like, that maybe didn't fit me perfectly, so I'd go for the political serviceroute. But the fundamental thing being that, yeah, I just found it enjoyable, which I mean is like the point.

I mean, nobody does this. For the money in any sense, you know, especially the jobs I've chosen. Neither of the positions I've held in elective office pay anything like a living wage. So, uh, it's essentially volunteer work, so you better be doing it for the emotional satisfaction. And, uh, and I think it was finally probably in college when I realized consciously that helping people doing good, trying to leave the world better than you found it.

Uh, was emotionally rewarding, at least for me. 

Scott M. Curran: The ultimate impact metric, leaving it better than you found it. Um, which one of our mutual friends, President Clinton, uh, shared during my graduation from the Clinton School of Public Service, which brought me to the Mid-South for the first time. Um, and under the latitude of of my wife's home state your, your state. And he said, you know, you're gonna hear a lot about impact measurement in your life, and I hope you just measure really what you do by one simple metric, which is whether you left it better than you found it. So what I love about your story, in addition to it being an example that your, uh, of your parents' service that led you to yours is that you were looking for the fast lane, to keep doing more of it.

And we're gonna talk about sort of the role you're, the roles you're in now. 'cause I love that you're at the law school. I'm, I'm a big believer that right now is a really important time to be a lawyer and, um, our, our profession in that front is is front page news this year. And I expect it will be for a while longer. I think I've always felt it's a noble profession and that lawyer jokes are less funny when lawyer lives and careers are more inspiring. So we'll talk about that in a second as well as your being mayor. 

But for those who may not be as familiar with you and your career as I am. You have this like quintessentially amazing through-line from those early days to where you are now. If you could offer those listeners who may not be as familiar with you, sort of the greatest hits of what you did, that trajectory from being a kid, learning from your parents to where you are today.

I think it gives a lot of hope, if not a roadmap for anybody else considering a life of service, regardless of where they may wind up. So tell us about some of those greatest hits, including leaving Oklahoma. To go get your, your college degree and then eventually making your way back while also still working in DC, which I find awesome and amazing because there's a lot of southern states that lose people who don't come back. 

David Holt: I graduated from high school in Oklahoma City in 1997, and this is where I was born and raised. And as I said earlier, you know, I had this sense of being, of, of wanting to be in DC. I was a National Merit Scholar in d in gw. Um. That had and perhaps still does a fairly significant, um, scholarship for that.

So that's where I landed. It's actually where my mom went, but that was not by design for me. And she, I had lost her when I was in, uh, high school. So she wasn't part of that conversation anyways. So I went to GW and got a political science degree and I interned for members of Congress that were from Oklahoma, as people often do if they're interested in that sort of thing. And it's easier during the school year to get those internships. In fact, it's very easy. Like there's really very little competition when you're from a place like Oklahoma. 

Scott M. Curran: Pro tip right there.

David Holt: They’re highly competitive in the summertime, but if you walk in in January, they're like, “Yeah, sure, come, come take a seat.” So then my first real job, um, was for the Speaker of the house and I, it was in. The, uh, early part of oh one, I was actually still in college. But I'd had enough AP credits that I only had to take like a couple of night classes, so I was able to work full time, like really work, not an internship. So I sat right outside the speaker's door in the US Capitol, which, you know, I'm like 21 years old. I mean, my tasks are menial, but. Like it's a, uh, window on the, the, the, the, the, you know, the central functions of the American government. I mean, the only people I ever saw were like world leaders and congressional leaders of that era. And of course, 9/11 happened while I was working there. So that was a whole other fascinating window to history that put me into position where I got this invitation to go work in the White House for ended up being for two years in legislative affairs for President Bush. 

I should say my, Legislative Affairs has historically been in the East Wing completely. That's like the only office of the president that's like fully in the White House proper as opposed to being in the executive office building. And so where I worked was just recently demolished. So those memories are gone now. I don't know where Leg Affairs will land in the future, but, uh, but for decades, upon decades, it was in the East Wing of the White House.

So, again, fascinating experience, very junior-level person, but like got to, you know, see up close the functions of a White House and by working in the, the house itself, like actually had the physical access to wherever I wanted to go, the West Wing, whatever. A lot of people who work for a president don't have the right badge to even go across the street, into the West Wing, so that was a cool perk. 

So, by the time I'd finished in the White House, I was 25 and I had worked in the US Capital for the speaker of the house, in the White House for the president. I'd married my wife by this point. We had married in 2003. She's from Philadelphia. We'd met at George Washington and this whole time I had this sense in the back of my mind that I wanted to possibly run for something someday. I realize now there are other pathways, but I always thought, well, you have to do that in your hometown. You have to do that where you're from. I see now that there are people who sort of transferring their twenties and end up running in those places. And maybe I could've done that, but for me it was like, I gotta get back to Oklahoma City and this era, this is 2004, when I left the White House and moved back to Oklahoma City.your listeners probably don't have a, a solid grounding in our history, but this was a time period where we had, where nine years after the Oklahoma City bombing, we had passed this initiative we call called MAPS, Metropolitan Area Projects. And it had started to invest in quality of life infrastructure that was kind of turning the city around, and there was a sense in ‘04. That something was dramatically shifting, that we were at a turning point in Oklahoma City and heading in kind of a positive direction for the first time in decades. 

So I kind of wanted to be a part of that. I was like, you know, I was very proud of my hometown and I wanted to be a part of that turnaround. I also felt like I needed to be home if I was ever gonna run for anything. I didn't have any particular master plan about what that would be or when that would be, but I just felt like I had to get home. So came back, my wife went to OU Law. I started working, I ran what little effort was needed for President Bush's reelection. Then I worked for Lieutenant Governor, who at the time was Mary Fallon, who years later would become the governor. And then in early ‘06, I started as the chief of staff to Mayor Cornett. Now, at that time, I was 26 years old. I never would've gotten a job like that, if not for this pedigree of having worked in the White House and worked for the speaker of the house.

But it turned out to be like the most, I would say, emotionally satisfying, gratifying job in politics that I had had to that point and to, to harken back to our earlier conversation, you know, like that's what it's all about. And so you might notice, however, of course, I started in the US Capitol, the White House, the State Capitol for the Lieutenant Governor, and now I'm at City Hall and it may appear that I'm working my way down, but really like that was municipal government, especially in a big city, was where I really found the most satisfying work, where you could really see your impact. It's all very esoteric in Washington, you know, but like at City Hall, it's like you can come up with an idea and see it through, uh, and get things done.

 And also we were like at this moment in time in Oklahoma City that we're still in, where we were just so dynamic and so effective and so outcome-oriented. We were getting stuff done, and we were doing it in really, you know, kind of a nonpartisan fashion. And so just everything about it was, was very enjoyable and attractive. And so I was there for five years. That's when the Oklahoma City Thunder of the NBA relocated to Oklahoma City. Um, but at the end of that five years, I was about 30, it was 2010, really leading up to 2010. And I was like, “Okay, it's, it's finally time.” Like, I had patiently waited, you know, I didn't wanna be, uh, too young. I didn't wanna lose a race because I was, you know, too young. Although when I look at the pictures now, I'm like, “Who voted for this child to be a state senator?” But, I ran for the state senate, kind of in the part of Oklahoma City where I had grown up, and I was elected. And so I served there for eight years. 

Now, senators in Oklahoma, like in a lot of places, don't really get a living wage. So I was actually, I glossed over it, but I also went to night school, law school at night, um, while I was in the mayor's office. And, uh, and so, and then I went where I announced, served as dean, the Oklahoma City University School of Law.And so coming out of leaving the mayor's office, 'cause I couldn't do both those things. I needed to leave the mayor's office to serve in the senate. I ended up practicing law for a little bit. I ended up, um, uh, actually running my mayor's four three election campaign and, uh, and eventually landed in a, a family owned investment office here in LKC around 2014.

So throughout my life of service, there's always two tracks. There's the service and then there's like, what's paying the bills. So I always have to remember that and so I've always had to have other employment because that's just the way we're structured in on practically every level here in Oklahoma.

So I served in the state senate for eight years, two terms, and then my mayor, who I had served as chief of staff, um, decided to leave after 14 years. He was the longest serving mayor in our city's history. He ended up running for governor and uh, and that's when I realized by this point it was 2018 when the election was for mayor.

You know, you gotta understand like at this point I'd been a really good Republican. I mean, um, the Republican party was rapidly shifting and of course we all know what it's like a decade later. But I was not a believer in this sort of bizarre shift in priorities and, and departure from all of the core principles, moral principles that I had subscribed to. I just was so smitten with what I had experienced at City Hall that I ran for mayor, and I would say that I would not necessarily have told you in 2010 when I left that that was what I was going to do. I mean, it wasn't necessarily the case that the mayor of Oklahoma City has been a pathway to other things, but I think by 2018, I'm looking at what's happening with Republican politics at the state and federal level, and I'm finding it highly distasteful. I've seen how the federal and state levels have just lost all of their productivity and effectiveness and have just turned into, like already at that point, we're starting to turn into sort of just professional wrestling and I'm looking at what's happening, continuing to happen in Oklahoma City and the way that government functions.

And I'm thinking, this is what I wanna do, and if this is all I ever do in elected office. That's good enough. In fact, that's, that's a great life. You know? And, and so I returned to City Hall. I was elected mayor now, almost eight years ago. And it feels like a lifetime because it's a, it's that kind of job, you know, where you just pack a lot into a day.

But so much has happened in our city, I feel like I inherited a renaissance, but I definitely feel like we have worked together to take it to a whole nother level. And, uh, some of the things you talked about, uh, reflect that, but. It's been an amazing ride. And then of course, on that other track of my life, um, after nine years, uh, I left that family-owned, investment company and I became dean of my alma mater law school two and a half years ago. And so that's actually where I'm sitting right now is I talk to you and. So it's not for everybody to balance those two things, but that's the, that's what I have to do. I have no choice. 

The mayor of Oklahoma City is basically a volunteer job, even though it's America's 20th, largest city. And I guess right now I've added a third job because I'm president of the Conference of Mayors for this year. But I've got a lot of energy and I'll sleep when I'm dead. But, but that's kind of my service story. There's obviously an even longer version and, but I've probably gone on long enough. But maybe people can get something out of that if they're interested in the way people ascend into these roles. But for me, it was just always trying to find the highest and best use of my abilities and finding that place where I'm, you know, doing the most good, which makes me the happiest. 

Scott M. Curran: There's several things I wanna drill down on here, and you, you couldn't have teed it up better because I do wanna talk about, I want people to understand why Oklahoma City as a city on this upward trajectory, which has been the case for a couple decades, as you've just described. It is so powerfully important because to me, I'm, I'm a huge fan of a few quotes that I think you can find in every aspect of life and. Work vision drives mission. Where focus goes, energy flows. Momentum begets momentum. And that's true for both your career, um, including going backwards.

I always say that, you know, my career also, I, I took a couple steps backward. I was practicing corporate law. Went down to Little Rock, Arkansas to get a master's degree in public service in the first class where it was being offered and having no alumni, no trajectory, no idea where it was gonna go. And I say, “listen, sometimes you gotta take a couple steps back to go forward.” And that's just dancing through life. And life is way more fun when we're dancing through it. It also produces great energy. So I think all of this is part of a unique whole for you. But we can only connect the dots looking backwards when we're doing it right in, in my experience and with people like you who live these dynamic careers that other people are like, how did this all unfold? How do you, how do you make any sense of it? And the truth is by connecting the dots backwards and seeing where it goes. 

As mayor, like we will go to law school next, 'cause I'm with you and I love it. I'm getting back into the classroom for the first time since the pandemic in my law school class that I teach this, this next semester. I'm super excited about it. It's a very important time for all of us who care about democracy, rule of law, access to justice, just lawyers showing up and doing a good job, even when we sometimes disagree on some things. I'm right there with you that, you know, there you kind of have these parallel tracks of things. 

As mayor, especially of Oklahoma City, share some of what's like on the front page, literally, a front page of like Sports Illustrated right now, the Olympics, which isn't, you know, those can be feathers in caps. Those can be great social media posts for some mayors. But it is part of this momentum and this feeling, this flywheel momentum that's been cranking for Oklahoma City that has moved you from 27th largest city in the country to 20th. It really matters though, because you're doing things behind that. I don't wanna use the word selling 'cause it almost sounds dirty, but, but sharing the story of what's possible for your constituents in a really red state that is sometimes harder, therefore against conventional retail politics, to sell people on things like a 1-cent tax. Sometimes that's a non-starter where things like culture wars say no new taxes. Right. And and we've both worked with and for and around people who say things like, “No new taxes.” Well, a 1 cent tax is a new tax in a state like Oklahoma, and that can work against somebody politically. But you've transcended that by sharing this vision of where this city is headed. Not just with what we have to lose, like we could lose our sports team if we don't do this, but by saying here's what's possible when we keep investing in things that keep this momentum going from Olympics to the OKC Thunder to new venues, to existing venues that can serve Olympics that are happening in LA we'll be in Oklahoma City for canoeing. And softball. Share how that story comes together for people who, who aren't familiar with the OKC story and who need to know it, because this is, this is a prime example of where focus goes, energy flows and momentum continues to be get momentum. 

David Holt: Let me kind of hone in on two things. One is sort of the political culture that's made this possible and then also sort of the tactics, which you've alluded to. Um. But let, but to get there, let me also first share sort of the catalysts, uh, moment. 

Back in the eighties, our community went through a great depression. Really for us it was, we were heavily dependent on oil and gas. And so when, in the early to mid eighties that experienced a bust, we really went through honestly, an economic depression. That resulted of course, in huge brain drain. At best, stagnant population growth. Um, it sparked a banking crisis that swept across the country and, you know, sort of compounded by, arguably the country's worst urban renewal initiative. And so our downtown was just absolutely dead. You know, we had like decimated it physically. Um, just a bunch of empty lots really, and, no life, you know, after five o'clock. 

So into that, came a mayor named Ron Norick, who was chasing a United Airlines maintenance facility. And long story short, he didn't get it. It was a big public thing that kind of was happening in many cities across the country is kind of like the Amazon two of its time, supposed to be thousands of high paying jobs. And Indianapolis. Got it. And you know, supposedly the, the story we tell today is that the mayor called the United CEO and he said, “I just couldn't imagine making my employees live in Oklahoma City.” You know, then, and that was when we really, I guess understood that, that really in modern America, the jobs follow the people, not the other way around. Like you need to have a quality of life that is attractive to people. And  that was more important maybe than, you know, workers' comp reform or tax policy. I mean, those things matter too, but, uh, but kind of don't matter if you haven't got the baseline of just a quality of life that's acceptable to the average America. 

So MAPS is what followed that actually first passed in 1993, um, a couple years before the bombing, but we sort of think of it as a response to the bombing because the project started opening after that. And it's just like basic quality of life infrastructure. And when I say quality of life, I, I'm trying to differentiate from police stations and water pikes and the other, like, basics of a city. It's, it's a sports arena. It's a baseball stadium downtown. It's a canal through our entertainment district that doesn't take you anywhere, but just provides sort of an aesthetically pleasing, um, thing. That first initiative in 1993 was worth at the time like $400 million. And today fif uh, you know, 30 years late, 32 years later, we are 15 and oh in tax votes at the municipal level to fund capital infrastructure. And even without adjusting for inflation, that total dollar amount is just under $10 billion date.

So to your point, like, how does a capital city in a red state vote 15 times versus zero losses to tax themselves. I mean, well first of all, of course, you need leadership that's even willing to go down that road. I think initially it was out of desperation, but it certainly hasn't felt quite so desperate over the last 15 years. But we haven't stopped. We've just said, “You know what, it's never enough.” Like you're never done building a city, and we had so far to go. When we began this journey that we've got more to do. And so you need a political culture, um, that, that, that doesn't play to the extremes that I would actually argue that those kinds of votes that we have engaged in are kind of impossible at both ends of the political spectrum.Because of course, as you allude to, of course, at the right, you've got the, I'm just never gonna put it, you know, no leader. Who wants to win a Republican primary, uh, in 2025 is gonna propose a tax vote. But at the other end of the extreme, you know, I've certain, and I certainly run into this as well, even in a state like Oklahoma at the far left, you often have people who say, well, I'm fine with taxation. But you know, there's a whole bunch of, there's a whole different list of, of litmus tests. You know, sales tax is aggressive or it can't be for stadiums and arenas, it can only be for social services and all this. So what do you need? You need these, like, you need this pragmatic leader in the middle who's willing to say it's, hey, taxation is okay.

I mean, it needs to be responsible, it needs to be efficient, it needs to be, you know, well implemented, but like it is a part of life. But also, hey, you know what? Economic development, quality of life, if we can mix in some of these, uh, social needs, that's great too. But like, you know, we're gonna have to borrow sort of priorities from both sides, Right? 

And Oklahoma City mayors for 30 years now have been well positioned to do that. Uh, and a big reason for that is the way we elect people, which I'm sort of, I'm on a soapbox about this a lot lately because people are so frustrated. That they feel how, you know, American democracy is sort of distorting the widely held views of the electorate, and it's because of closed partisan primaries.

But for whatever reason, um, most mayors in Oklahoma cities included in that list, are electeds through different format. We have a top two system. It's technically also nonpartisan, but I think the most important part of it is that all of the voters get the same ballot. Meaning that they get to see all of the candidates and all of the candidates have to face all of the voters. And what this results in, in Oklahoma City is the ability to have pragmatic mayors who can build a coalition of what I call the normal 70% of people in the middle who are, who are, some of them are registered Republicans, some of them are registered Democrats, some of them are registered independents. Um, but they're, but they're all willing to compromise like Americans have for 250 years. And we get things done and we're just very outcome oriented. We're very pragmatic. We respect pluralism. We compromise. 

I mean, the outcomes that I ultimately usually propose to the public are not perfect for anybody but me. Really like, you know, when I propose MAPS four, for example. So MAPS has been so successful. We're on the fourth iteration of it. Um, you know, there were 16 projects in that maps and I used to joke, but it's not really a joke. But the only person who likes all 16 is the mayor. You know? But, but, but that's okay. As long as you're willing, you like enough of them that you're willing to vote.

And so we got 72% for that. We got 71% for the arena. We did a bond issue in October, that's $2.7 billion. And we got, it's a, it's a series of different questions. So we got anywhere from 75 to 85%. That same city that's voting 50 50 in the presidential elections, looks like America, demographically, um, is green on these major initiatives at the city level. Time and time again at at consensus levels. I mean, 70% plus, which we keep getting for things is like, there's not like a word in politics for that because we'll usually call anything over 60 a landslide. So I don't know what 70 would be. That's like a super landslide, you know? So. So how are we doing that? I think it's back to the way we elect people, which positions people like me who are, who are coming up with these initiatives and selling them to the public, um, to be able to build that coalition of 70% of people in the middle. So I think we're running an experiment that actually is very important for the country if the country would like to, would like to clue in on it. Cecause it's, it's, the significance of it extends far beyond. What's happening in Oklahoma City, it's demonstrating that there is a 70% of America that can agree, um, and can move forward with an outcome that that represents compromise. But as it turns out, most people are willing to compromise it is just that like the closed partisan primaries have created this perception that we're highly polarized and that there's only two choices and they're like way far apart. Um, and that those people are, those, those 15% at both ends of the spectrum, they are really polarized. But they, they are actually a strong minority of, and a very loud minority in this country.

But the closed parties, the primary has sort of like allowed them to control the debate, where the 70% of us in the middle are sort of like, Hey, like, what about us? You know? But, but we never really get to speak as a whole, you know, we get just presented in, in November by these two polarizing options. Um, whereas in Oklahoma City, we sort of have a, a, a different setup. And that's true in a lot of cities. A lot of cities are getting things done. We're not the only ones. So I, um, I just think that I wanted to kind of tell that story, but, but the sum total of it is all of that investment in ourselves, which is another important tactic I would advise any city to, to do is like, just invest in yourselves.

And when you do that, people in America tend to vote with their feet and they will reward you. And so when I was born, we'd be the 37th largest city. Today we're the 20th largest city, and as you said, I mean, we're the NBA champions. We're gonna host these seven events at the Olympics in 2028. We're in a record streak of unemployment below 4%. I could go on and on. I mean, it's a golden age in Oklahoma City right now. But it's built fundamentally on a political culture that embraces compromise, embraces unity, and working together. Um, and kind of just pushes that hyper-partisanship and polarization to the edges of, of our, of our civic life. And I don't really think about that stuff a lot unless I turn on cable news.

But here in Oklahoma City we've created kind of a unique bubble where we just work together. Like I, I would argue Americans used to for a very long time. 

Scott M. Curran: It's interesting because the state comes across nationally in a national news as a deep red state, and, and it is there, there's this dichotomy, right? You talk about this municipality nonpartisan elections, which really allow reasonable people to make reasonable decisions and, and, and pursue what are very reasonable and successful approaches. Whereas on the state level, there is straight party voting, which will sort of always. Cement a, a certain color to the state when it comes to, its, its other elections outside of municipality.

So it's this dichotomy that is actually amazing and you sit in the middle of it and there's so many people who follow you that, that bring hope and excitement and the same level of enthusiasm that I have for you, that I think you have for the work you do and for the people you get to do it with. In Oklahoma, it's such a bright spot in a state that so many people either overlook because they don't have the information that that we're sharing here about what's working in a city that's on the move. 

For those who aren't familiar with brain drain, I had to learn about this when I moved to the Mid-South, I moved to Little Rock and spent a couple years there in an education program, stayed for a full five years, decided to buy a house, have a kid, get a couple dogs, and live that life. There are these cities in the middle of these states that are, you know, nationally appear quite red and pretty deep re but have so much amazing progress happening in them because there is this 70% in the middle that, that want to see investment, that want to work together. Parts of the south are subject to what's called brain drain, where the best and brightest who graduate from your, your colleges and universities go to other big cities or other states where employment opportunities are great. When a city is growing like Oklahoma is, I'm sorry, Oklahoma City is, you're counteracting that you're providing these jobs, these opportunities, this momentum, this desire to want to stay in a place that is on this upward trajectory, and especially in the south, that's a big deal. Detroit went through this, so it's not unique just to the south, it's, it's found in other parts of the country as well. But to see that in the South, it really is an incredible success story for right now. 

I'd love to spend a little time on sort of how you sit 'cause your, your leadership and Oklahoma City's success is breaking through to national news and it's happening in big ways like the Olympics. And I'd love for you to sort of break that down, talk about that. But it's also coming through in sort of your leadership TIME recognized you as part of the Time 100 oof the next up and coming leaders. And you're the antidote in many ways. You're a Republican through and through your, your history and your background and your career proves that your baf fetus are, are, are clear. But you are not a Republican I know anybody hates, and, and there's a lot because you don't play the partisan politics partially because it's part of your job, but you could easily play those partisan politics and they play quite well in your state and you don't, and I'd love for you—and you have the results to show for it, which is that, hey, listen, there's a lot of these things that aren't partisan at all and that serve everyone.

And I just think that's a safer, healthier place to be. And I don't mean to be speaking for you, but, but I've watched you for a long time and I've observed you, I've watched you go places like where we were both in New York when we first happened upon each other in the street corner with mutual friends. Like, you go to the Clinton Global Initiative, which is a nonpartisan nonprofit convening, and lots and lots of people of every political stripe and no political stripe go there. But you could be subject to some criticism for appearing to cross the party lines, an that could be seen as a negative by some people in your state, but you just kind of seem to curate this aura round you of, “Hey, let's just do what's good for people and let's drive to the fact territory of that. Leave the politics off on the sides and the fringes, and we can talk about it and we can work through it, but we can still work with each other.” 

And so I'm curious, how do you see yourself as a political leader with an, our designation in the environment in which we, we work and live nationally and you're getting national recognition. How are you engaging with your peers on both sides of the aisle in that national landscape? Because you do serve as our sort of mayor in chief nationally and mayors are front page news. Mamdani in New York, you in Oklahoma City, others throughout the country. Mine in Chicago. Um, I'm in the suburbs, but the Chicago mayor gets a lot of attention nationally as well. We're in this landscape where more than ever municipal leadership is in national news. 

How do you see yourself as you—I know how you see yourself in, in the context of working in Oklahoma for the betterment of Oklahoma City and all Oklahomans it serves. But how do you see your leadership growing and serving a e even greater population against the national backdrop? 

David Holt: I guess what I've always felt, especially in this environment, what's happening in American political life is that there's certainly the large part of my bandwidth is spent leading my city and coming up with the next big thing and, and leading us towards that vision. But there's also a big part of what I do where I'm talking about how we do things, which I feel is like more necessary than maybe in the past. I mean, if you were to watch, you know, for example, watch my annual state of the city address, you would, you would note that, baybe more so than you're used to, you'll see me sort of talking about some of the same themes we've already covered about like our political culture and how we do things, and I just find that I think I'd better be intentional about that. I better articulate that, not just, and not just leave it implicit, but like be more explicit about what we're doing here in Oklahoma City and why it does certainly contrast with what is happening in state and national politics. I think I just try to set an example. I control what I can control, just, influence my corner of the world, um, and, and serve in the way that I think people should serve.

I also would add, I would add that I don't think what I'm doing and how I do it is historically that unique in American political life, it only seems like an outlier or a breath of fresh. In 2025, I think if this were 2001, you'd say, yeah. It's like this is how, this is what you do. I mean, you and I are old enough to remember when people ran for office and in their TV ads actually said things like, “You know, David Holt has a proven history of working across the aisle and, and coming up with bipartisan solutions.” Right now. It's like, you know, it would be, it would be, “David Holt fights for you and makes sure that the radical leftists never achieve anything whatsoever.” You know? And like, that's obviously doomed to failure. Like that means like that type of attitude when both candidates are saying, I will never work with the other side. But since both sides represent about 50% each, like that means nothing's ever gonna happen.

I think, you know, what I represent and how I serve is actually fairly, um, fairly routine and common. Uh, so I just think I'm trying to kind of maybe be a throwback and bring back what, what, what was proven to work in this country for a very long time. I don't know. I hope that people are paying attention and they're getting some inspiration from it. I, I think they could also look to a lot of American mayors. Not all of them maybe, but a lot of American mayors who, who basically governed in a similar fashion trying to be mayors for their entire city, trying to get things done rather than just score political points.

Um, I mean, as a class, I think you're gonna get a lot more of that from mayors than any other level of government right now. Um, and, you know, we'll just see where it all goes. We clearly, as a country are still sort of going down, not going to stuff, you know, I mean, in terms of what I'm talking about here, and it's, it's maybe gonna still get worse before it gets better. But there are glimmers of hope. I mean, like here in Oklahoma for example, uh, there are people right now gathering petitions for a balot initiative that would create a top two format in Oklahoma, which would fundamentally change the incentive structure. And suddenly like normal, pragmatic people would have a chance of serving the state and would be able to refocus us as a state back on healthcare, public education, the economy.

I mean these just public safety, these basic. Issues that are what we su what we should be debating right now. Um, that's really, that's what's so crazy about American politics is right now it's like we're not even talking about the basic fundamental issues that are of most of the most importance to the 70% of people in the middle.

Scott M. Curran: You know, when we have the Mamdani of New York and the, and the Holts of Oklahoma City and the, the Mayor Scotts of Little Rock, Arkansas, who are, you know, all trying to be. You know, good stewards of the long game that serves everyone versus those. Speaking just to the loud moment, this long game versus loud moment and, and people are playing a loud moment, do you see a role for someone in your position to create the space for a kinder, gentler politics? Or do you try to stay out of it all together and just, I, I'm here to do this job in this place and I'll lead by example? Or are you trying to shape. 

The discussion within the state where you are the big, the mayor of the biggest city, that that serves an awful lot of its population. How do you balance that time and you're getting national attention, rightfully so, and deservedly so, because the good people, the good people in that 70%--and I think all the people in Oklahoma are good. I've never met one. I I haven't enjoyed meeting no matter, and, and I've never asked anybody for their political backgrounds and meeting them. But I do spend a lot of time there 'cause I have a lot of family there. And I care about all those people. And I think all those people are sincere. But there's a lot of conversation to be had about how people are educated, either by the television commercials or in the schools and, and by, you know, culture wars that dominate the, the volume of that loud moment. How do you see your role as mayor to be, if at all, a counterbalance to that really loud moment?

David Holt: Yeah. All I care about the state and I care about, I mean, we're in the state, you know, so, so I. I can only imagine a world where the state would be a productive partner in our success as a city. Um, and I would love to see all of the state enjoy the benefits of the political system we have here in Oklahoma City.

So I have been a public advocate of that state question. We'll see where it all goes. The state question 8 36 if anybody wants to Google it. But, um, and I do see, yeah, I see a role for myself there. You know, the problem with getting involved in like a governor's race or something is again, that like 80% of the state will not really have any, any real voice in who the next governor of the state of Oklahoma is because the decision will be made in a closed, partisan runoff next August. There's enough candidates running that, I'm sure there'll be a runoff. So it's not even just the primary in June that we're talking about, or really the real decision, and this is usually the case in recent years in Oklahoma. The final decision that chooses our most important leaders in Congress and at the state level is made in an August runoff. And the vast majority of the state, well, I should say a majority of the state is ineligible functionally—like, like literally. And then a vast majority of the state is either ineligible or kind of unaware that it's even happening. You know, I mean, like it's one thing to say, well, “Half the state's Republican, they could at least vote.” Yeah. Well, I mean, come on. You know how many normal people. Who think they vote well because they vote in every presidential election or every, you know, governor's race in November, uh, are even aware that like actually the most important decision is made in August while they're like getting their kids ready for the school year and all that, you know?

So, and of course with the lack of media that we have now and the way people get news, I mean, it's even compounded. So this very small sliver of our state will choose our next governor next August in the runoff. And, and so for me to get involved in that, it's like the people that I speak to are that 70% of them in the middle. Very, very few of them will even have a, a vote really, uh, a functionally in this decision.So, um, you know, that's the challenge, that's the problem. And that's why I can't imagine getting very involved in that, 'cause it's like, I don't even really speak to those sort of far extremists. 

And this, this problem that I'm describing exists on the other side too. You know, it's just at different places, where. I have friends in Democrat politics and other blue states where the primary, or the primary runoff is every, is decides everything. And they feel like they have to pretend to be communists, you know? And then in Oklahoma, you know, the Republicans who run and wanna win feel like they have to pretend to be fascists, you know? And that's what we as voters who care, who are more  pragmatic and care about the future, we just have to hope that the people who win these races are just pretending to be crazy and not actually crazy. That's like our, that's the all we can hope for it.

Obviously I dream of a day we had like, people can be authentic, they can be their selves. They can talk about the, the truly important issues facing whatever constituency it is they're trying to represent or lead. And that is what, how we used to do things around here. But I tell you, if, if America ever wants to get back to that sort of, um, you know, effectiveness that we enjoyed for a very, very long time when we unleashed like the greatest innovation and success that the world has ever seen. Um, we've gotta get everybody back in the conversation again and, and have everybody a part of this decision making process.

But in the meantime, here in OKC, that is how we do it. And to that extent, I do try to lead by example and I try to try to point out, you know, like, “Hey, right in your right in the heart of your state, you have arguably the most dynamic city in America right now.” And the way we do things could not be more different than the way we're doing things at the state where every ranking has slipped back to being among the worst in the United States.

Think about maybe trying to emulate what is working here at OKC, not what is. Failing at the state level, and we'll just keep trying to lead by example and hope that finally, that that light bulb turns on for everybody. 

Scott M. Curran: And again, I, I do think that's the role that you can play. I, I, I tell students in, in the classes I teach and remind others, especially my own kids and young professionals, um, you know, we can't be what we can't see. And that's why that vision drives mission. We have to put it out there. We have to be able to show it. And not everybody has to be the boss to be a leader. And you don't have to be in charge of the state. You don't have to be the governor to have an impact and be a leader. And I, I think that's what's so powerful about your example. 

When I hear people, well outside of the state of Oklahoma, but also within the state of Oklahoma and anybody following you on social will see so many comments to almost any and every post you make. And again, I'm not asking, I'm not pushing this in a political direction, but like, “Please run for governor! Please run for senator! Please show this is possible! And I'm just like, it's that same energy that is kept Oklahoma City on the rise and, and opened a lane for you. And I just hope the people of Oklahoma are super, super proud of what's happening in Oklahoma City. I hope they're aware of it against this national backdrop because there is so much hunger, so much demand, and so much desire that the political system may not be making possible outside of the role of, of mayor, but is absolutely alive and well within a state that every Oklahoman can be proud of. And I think the, the power of your example to go back to, to the introductory quote is so much greater than the example of anybody's power in the state.

And I wonder if you would say a little bit—this is always a little sensitive for a whole bunch of reasons. People, there's a lot of people who like to make hay out of, out of headlines. But Oklahoma City experienced one of the nation's worst terror attacks. It was a case of domestic terrorism, the Oklahoma City bombing for those who may be younger and unfamiliar with it outside of the state of Oklahoma. I don't think anybody in the state of Oklahoma is unaware of it. the time Bill Clinton was president and he made a commitment to continue to support and be available to and present for the people of Oklahoma as long as he was living. And I believe he has kept that, that bargain. I don't wanna speak for anybody in Oklahoma, but there's a really beautiful, poignant and powerful post you made in the past year during one of the remembrances—a picture of you and, and President Clinton, my former colleague, and continued collaborator—looking out at the memorial at night, I'm just curious like. Those are the things that usually unite people and, and the comments to that were really beautiful and rarely political. 

Could you speak to, to sort of what that time was like, um, your reflections and observations of that and the hope of, of how people came together to help after that, um, nationally, locally, and otherwise? And, and what that means to the people of Oklahoma and what it means for, for nonpartisan and nonpolitical leadership as far as the example you set in, in, in being a steward of, of that legacy going forward at this time? 

David Holt: Yeah. 1995, April 19th our governor had just been in office a few months. Frank Keating, he's a republican. Uh, President Clinton had been obviously in office a couple years had just actually come off of what was viewed as sort of a damaging midterms. He was sort of viewed as being at a low level of, of support at that time. And this, this terrible event happens where a veteran of the US military parks a bomb in front of our federal building and kills 168 of our residents. And I should say, you know, that to me should remain a constant reminder of the ultimate outcome of this insane extremist rhetoric, right? Where we reject the rule of law, where we reject pluralism, we reject all the processes that have worked so well for 250 years to, uh, resolve our differences without violence.

Right? And that's what the perpetrators of the bombing did. They rejected all of that, and they just said like, we're just gonna kill people. We're gonna, that's how we're gonna solve our problems. So, and how we're gonna get our viewpoints, uh, out there. So, um, so that happens. And obviously the community, you know, the community response was amazing.

Completely united, total rejection of that tactic. And what was also endearing, um, that you've alluded to, was the ability for people at different levels of government who might have been in different political parties to work together in the response. And actually, President Clinton and Governor Keating had known each other since they were in college together at Georgetown University.

And they certainly worked well together, and certainly President Clinton didn't care that he didn't win Oklahoma the previous election. And, you know, didn't win Oklahoma the next year in 1996, but nevertheless delivered great leadership, took the temperature down 'cause I mean, you gotta remember like the perpetrators wanted to spark a civil war. It wasn't just about killing hundred 68 people. They thought that would be a catalyst. And you know, he was, President Clinton was here in Oklahoma City a few days later. And said all the right things, you know, said exactly the kind of things you need your leader to say in those moments to not have it, you know, uh, begin some sort of, uh, larger confrontation. 

And as you said on that date, when he came a few days later, he said he was gonna be here, uh, for as many tomorrows as it takes, and he has come every five or, I think basically every five year anniversary except for the one that hit during the pandemic when he sent a video. But, he was here for the 30th, um, and has always stayed close to us. And yeah, I think that's a, a bond between he and our city that transcends politics. It shouldn't matter, um, what his views were on the marginal tax rate. You know, this is about us working together as human beings, um, to get past a terrible, terrible act that could have had greater ramifications. Nonetheless, I still, I feel even today that there are many, many echoes and they're getting louder of that type of extremism. I try to hold up Oklahoma City so that people can be reminded of, of the scar in our downtown and not repeat those mistakes again. 

So I've used my platform as mayor. I feel like I sort of have an obligation. Both at the local and and national levels to talk about Oklahoma City's experience in 1995 and be someone out there sharing and reminding people that when you dehumanize people, you know, when you create, when you talk about these apocalyptic outcomes, if your candidate doesn't win, this is sort of what you're paving the way towards. And that's why, by the way, over 230 mayors this, we don't have enough time to get into this, but Google it. Over 230 mayors have signed the Oklahoma City Declaration, which addresses a lot of what I'm just talking about, a lot of what we talked about throughout this hour. And, um, it's about embracing pluralism and it's about embracing the basic democratic. Behaviors that will make this experiment last another 250 years. 

So check that out—Oklahoma City Declaration. We signed it originally right there at the, at the survivor tree, at the Oklahoma City National Memorial. 

Scott M. Curran: I would love to have gotten into more about the role of law and lawyers and both of us being in the space of educating young lawyers about their, the importance of the rule of law, access to justice, democracy and the core underpinnings that lawyers are ultimately the custodians of civil society that, that, that provides that middle ground sapce. And since we're limited on time, we won't go too deep into that, but maybe we'll do a part two where we can both talk about the value and importance of training young lawyers and, and law students towards that. But in the meantime, I just wanna say thank you. 

I think these, these core themes that, that clearly started with your, the example of your parents, um, and your grandparents, and the importance of cooperation, collaboration, leadership, and service to our shared humanity. Um, the value and importance of service and care for, for all. Politics as a method to get to a place of service, but then serving everyone regardless of their politics is so alive and well, not only in Oklahoma City, but, but also in, and especially due to your leadership. There's a lot of good mayors in this, in this country. I would say that there,--I would be hard pressed to find anybody who, who personifies  better more than you. Mayor David Holt. Thank you so much for your time. But, but thank you more for your example. 

David Holt: Well, you're very kind. Thank you so much for this opportunity It was a great, great to chat with you. And I guess since I have two distinct lives, I may demand a second show at some point where we could talk about my other life as dean. This was great, and thank you for what you're doing. You know, as you said earlier, like we don't all have to be the governor to make a difference. I mean, like you're clearly, carrying these values out into the world and I think there's a lot of Americans who are doing the same. And we'll get through this, thanks to, uh, I think thanks to people like you. So thank you. 

Scott M. Curran: Thank you for tuning in to the Better Good podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please remember to rate, review, subscribe, and share.

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